r/MadeMeSmile • u/dairymilk_silk • 4h ago
Wholesome Moments This kid loves his butterflies so much
While raising swallowtail caterpillars at home, Jo noticed that the butterflies emerging from their cocoons seemed to act familiar with him or returned to him after being released.He reached out to experts, including Georgetown University entomologist Martha Weiss, to see if memories could survive the process of metamorphosis.Nagai didn’t originally “discover” the general phenomenon , similar memory retention had been demonstrated in moths in 2008, but his work extended the question to butterflies, and he later began investigating the even more remarkable possibility that learned responses could persist into subsequent generations.
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u/Snowbank_Lake 4h ago
Even if he didn’t “discover” the concept, it’s so important seeing kids take notice of something like that and get inspired to research it! I hope this kid has a great future ahead!
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u/teetaps 2h ago
His own brain discovered it, and that’s what’s important. Somewhere in his head there’s a neural link between phenomena X and Y, and he learned that all by himself and told everyone about it so that they could confirm it. It’s intelligence doing what it’s supposed to, making humans awesome
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u/TexasWidow 1h ago
And just as importantly, his parents supported him in this instead of shutting down his curiosity or discouraging him from taking it further.
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u/fork_yuu 1h ago
It's really important we teach and have the future generation do this instead of the brain drain where they take the first thing they see off tiktok / ai
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u/AlbertTheHorse 1h ago
No but he has made discoveries, per his mentor Martha Weiss, into inheritance of memory.
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u/abstr_xn 1m ago
he done more than "discovering a concept"
He done more research and got more actual findings through his rigorous testing than actual leading scientists in that field (specifically butterflies)
anyone can say "I bet that has memory" he proved they do and they pass it down through generations. He already has a great future ahead of him, what an oddly downplaying comment aimed at a child for accomplishing something that would essentially amount to an incredible achievment for someone in their adult career.
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u/Large-Hamster-199 4h ago
And the tie and the glasses. It's just too perfect. I hope he comes a scientist.
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u/fried_green_baloney 3h ago
He'll probably look exactly the same when he gets his Nobel Prize, which I hope he does.
Saw a PBS show on archaeology in Mayan temples. The 16 year old son of one of the researchers figured something out on his own and presented a paper at a conference.
We underestimate what younger people are capable of.
PS: The 16 year old was otherwise just like any other teenager, not some kind of wind-up robot like Dr. Sheldon Cooper.
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u/Drewski346 2h ago
Sometimes the real barrier to entry when it comes to science is access more than anything else.
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u/fried_green_baloney 2h ago
Some parts of experimental science are brutally expensive and that does limit access.
All those labs full of pretty DNA sequencers etc, or high precision measurement devices in physics labs, those things start at $10K and go up a lot further.
Or getting time on the giant telescopes, in astronomy.
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u/Drewski346 2h ago
Oh for sure. Half the reason science ends up being done by corporations and governments is that they're the only ones with the budgets for quite a lot of it.
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u/Heathcliff_Slocumb 13m ago
I saw that doc too and I'm pretty sure the kid was going to that area with his parents every year of his life, but your point still stands.
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u/willargue4karma 3h ago
When I was a kid my dad got me a little suit for like 50 bucks; I adored it. When we went on planes I loved wearing it lmao 🤣
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u/Professional_Post451 2h ago
the little suit and lanyard really make it even better what an awesome kid
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u/DisMyNameRightHea 4h ago
Genuinely really cool, the universe is a hell of a place
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u/Ok_Astronomer_8667 1h ago
The picture makes the poster blurry so you can’t actually read the experiment. Post makes it out like they remembered him like a friend, but it’s only because he was shocking them with pain and the acknowledgment of his face = incoming pain stayed with them through the change. Still interesting don’t get me wrong, but this picture is always funny to me because he looks so happy but the methodology is just insect torture pretty much lol
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u/PolarBailey_ 34m ago
thats what the first experiment did, but this kid did more positive stimuli rather than pain stimuli
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u/Nihilwhal 1h ago
It's amazing for sure, especially considering that a caterpillar's brain basically dissolves during metamorphosis and the butterfly brain forms out of the goo that's left. Some bits of that goo must retain signals that help guide the newly formed brain to certain behaviors. I hope some grad student is out there working on understanding the mechanism behind this process, because it could have broad implications for other brain research.
We can't say for sure that either phase of this creature has anything we might call consciousness, but if they did, it amuses me to think that the butterfly just wakes up liking this kid for some reason, but never knows why.
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u/niceguy191 1h ago
especially considering that a caterpillar's brain basically dissolves during metamorphosis
Isn't that just a misconception?
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u/EyeWriteWrong 1h ago
No, I'm going around dissolving their brains with a shukemer.
No need to thank me 👍
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u/Nihilwhal 1h ago
It's an oversimplification, but there's no doubt significant dissolution of the entire nervous system occurs, including the brain. This story is just one indicator that some of it survives.
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u/Someone_Called_Cerie 4h ago
Oh look! A post that actually makes me smile! Shit's awesome, you go, kid!
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u/OpenYour0j0 4h ago
It’s true the ones who grow up on my dill remember my finger wave to them as swallowtails they even come back to leave their own offspring and land on my shoulders
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u/revolvernyacelot 3h ago
There was also a Japanese child (Ryo Shibata) whose research on Japanese rhinoceros beetles was published in a scientific paper. Super cool stuff to read about.
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u/cydereal 3h ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imaginal_disc
Say hello, it's you, the purest you
Implanted, impatient, impossible
In memory, mirror, and membrane
Divine digits, the nightmare lifts
It's here, imaginal disk
Say hello, it's you
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u/CordobezEverdeen 1h ago
How the fuck do scientist figure this shit out. Insects are small as fuck.
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u/Inevitable-Ad6647 3h ago
Iirc an entomologist saw this boy and ended up writing a paper with him and listed him as lead author.
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u/No-Communication4586 2h ago
He did more then that. He proved the butterfly's offspring contained genetic memory.
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u/Dr_Jabroski 1h ago
Most of the biggest scientific discoveries don't come from "EUREKA!" but "huh, that's interesting" or "wait, what?".
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u/Westboundupsidedown 3h ago
Read the poster everyone, he also administered electric shocks to the butterfly to see if they remember that as well.
Turns out not only do they remember scents, they also remember torture.
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u/Fast_Shift2952 4h ago
Is this… awesome?
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u/VergilPrime 4h ago
You don't understand...
If you cut open a cocoon, there's not a halfway developed butterfly inside. It's not like a tadpole growing legs and becoming a frog, caterpillars LIQUEFY into bug juice and reform as butterflies or moths.
There's no solid brain structure. There's no brain or as we understand it, brain cells. The creature that emerges from the cocoon should have no memory of what it was before, but this 10 year old kid did proper science, contacted an American team who did essentially the same experiments, did a BETTER JOB, was less harmful to the insects, and proved that they have memory that transcends their metamorphosis.
This kid is a freaking genius and it should Impress the crap out of you!
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u/Fast_Shift2952 4h ago
I totally agree! I was just making a reference to the silly Pokémon meme where the guy has the butterfly land on him and he asks “is this… a pigeon?” I just did a terrible job at it. I have phd in molecular biology so I can appreciate how rare discovery like this and how cool the molecular mechanism must be. I absolutely love that a little kid figured it out.
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u/Danielq37 3h ago
Yes and he went a step further noticing that even the offspring inherited some of their parents memories.
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u/Large-Hamster-199 4h ago
Relax. It was a meme / joke referring to a guy admiring the butterfly
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u/VergilPrime 4h ago
Ah fuck shit fuck it went right over my head FUCK!
I'm sorry.
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u/Large-Hamster-199 4h ago
No big deal. It would be much funnier if he could have posted the picture here but this subreddit doesn't allow that.
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u/Geisterkoch 2h ago
I heard about this on Radiolab. The caterpillar has some specialized cells that its immune system suppresses while it’s a caterpillar. Its body liquifies into a nutrient soup in the cocoon or chrysalis, except the specialized cells, which then start building the butterfly or moth from that liquid now that there is no immune system to suppress them. The caterpillar dies in every way that current science understands, so memories of scents or people existing in common between what are actually two different animals is really crazy. It’s a great episode, and this kid’s test was simple but brilliant.
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u/Fast_Shift2952 4h ago
Guys, I’m joking. This is absolutely amazing! I was just referencing the Pokémon meme where the kid has a butterfly land on him and he says “is this… <insert word>”
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u/HalcyonKnights 4h ago
Yes, yes it is. The kid loved his insects so much that the love survived them being dissolved into a different organism.
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u/meggawatts 37m ago
BTW, they remembered that he was the one administering painful electric shocks to them as caterpillars.
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u/PolarBailey_ 34m ago
what he did differently was positive stimuli rather than using pain stimuli to test.
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u/BigJellyfish1906 13m ago
That is so crazy that caterpillars can straight up turn into goo inside the cocoon, and still retain memories when it all reforms.
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u/iKONIC-ONCE 3h ago
you didn't include that he did this by electrically shocking the caterpillars until they threw up
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u/RecognitionMany7716 2h ago
Caterpillars develop Stockholm syndrome after being electroshocked by child
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u/Negative_Rip_2189 1h ago
Fyi one of the test he made was to shock caterpillars while exposing them to certain scents so that the butterflies would be scared of that scent.
If that's love I'd be worried about his future partners
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u/MBTHVSK 3h ago
Is it really proof they have memories, or perhaps just some sort of alteration to internal chemistry?
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u/dairymilk_silk 3h ago
After a certain period of time, they no longer retain memory, but they do remember those memories for quite a long time.
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u/DaDibbel 3h ago
They only live for 6-14 days though.
So what is quite a long time in this context?
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u/Sawgon 1h ago
Percentage of total lifetime.
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u/Sea-Foundation-449 1h ago
A few days feels like a pretty short time, even if you only live for a couple weeks
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u/Sawgon 1h ago
For you, a human whose lifespan can reach up to 120 years, yes.
For a Greenland Shark that can live up to 400 years, I'm sure your life seems very short.
For a Black Coral that lives in the ocean for 4000 years, your life is nothing than a quick blink.
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u/Sea-Foundation-449 42m ago
But how do you know the mechanism for memory storage is related to lifespan?
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u/sohblob 3h ago
internal chemistry
Memories are internal chemistry lol. Repeat imprinting of emotional, conceptual and sensory data
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u/MBTHVSK 3h ago
Okay, but like, I read the article, and it seems like they have certain responses to smells? How do we know that is due to some way that exposure to chemicals alters the way their sensory organs form upon turning into a butterfly, and not actual memories?
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u/Pretend_Walk_34 1h ago
We know a bit about this process already. Inheriting memories has to do with epigenetics. Environmental triggers cause changes in DNA methylation or histone acetylation which are inherited in some cases and passed to egg and sperm cells. These chemical changes alter gene regulation turning specific genes off or on.
(For example, the environmental trigger could be exposure to lavender oil/shock, the brain's exposure to lavender oil/shock causes DNA methylation and down-regulation of specific olfactory receptor genes that are inherited to future generations causing avoidance of lavender oil. (This is just a guess. The pathway isn't known.))
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u/MBTHVSK 1h ago edited 1h ago
I'm still a bit lost but from what I gather, is the whole "memories" thing actually somewhat tongue-in-cheek, and we already supposed to agree that this is an anatomical thing and the butterflies don't likely remember anything? Is it similar to "remembering" that tall places are dangerous for animals who can't fly or float?
Am I reading this article too literally, not getting the point, that it's more like DNA magic being worked, not actual retaining of experiences?
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u/Pretend_Walk_34 1h ago edited 1h ago
It's a little like DNA magic. It's just that the DNA sequence itself isn't being changed, just kind of the things that hold DNA together that are being changed. They change the shape of it. When the shape is changed other molecules can bind to it, or be prevented from binding to it.
The experiences have nothing to do with it. You can't inherit experiences.
Edit: At least, not that I know of. I would love to know of any examples of this.
There are many complicated pathways of "epigenetic" memory. I gave a very simplified example. The very essence of epigenetics is that it relies on non-coding changes to DNA.
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u/MBTHVSK 1h ago
So basically it has nothing to do with neurons or the nervous system of butterflies? I'm at the point where the whole article seems like a sham that wouldn't be if they discarded the ¨memories" angle. Then again, I am a doubter of Hellen Keller's writing skills.
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u/Pretend_Walk_34 1h ago edited 1h ago
They call it "epigenetic memory". But it's not actually memory. It happens in humans, too. The effects of trauma can be inherited through generations. It's not actual memories, but kind of a molecular imprint.
But, no. Unless neurons are specifically involved in the pathway affected by the epigenetic remodeling they wouldn't necessarily be involved. They aren't passing down actual memories to their offspring.
Edit: The thing that makes the article unique is that this pathway wasn't previously known in butterflies AND that the research was conducted by a ten year old. It is legit. Scientific papers/research are remarkably small in scope sometimes.
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u/bythenumbers10 2h ago
Lepidoptimist? He doesn't just study them, he befriends & believes in them, too.
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u/naughtyinnature14 2h ago
There's a great radiolab podcast on this! https://radiolab.org/podcast/signal-hill-caterpillar-roadshow
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u/PuzzleheadedRush6109 1h ago
do you think the same thing works for flies & maggots?
I might play mine Mozart next brooding season
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u/Lonely-Serve 57m ago
Great Curious Birb vid I saw on this a couple months ago: Genius 1O Year Old's Research Shocks Scientists Around the World
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u/QuarkVsOdo 5m ago
Cool dude.
Also terrifying to get liqufied in a meat coffin to rise again as a winged creature.
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u/FucklberryFinn 2m ago
Radiolab had an awesome episode about him!!
It's a great story and good listen.
https://radiolab.org/podcast/signal-hill-caterpillar-roadshow/transcript
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u/mauravelous 4h ago
wasnt he torturing the caterpillars as the test💀💀
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u/dairymilk_silk 4h ago
No, Jo was incredibly meticulous about ensuring his research was safe, humane, and ethical.
The article said " He used lavender oil to introduce a specific, normally harmless scent. While exposing the swallowtail caterpillars to the lavender scent, he simultaneously applied a very mild physical stimulus (a gentle electrical pulse/vibration) using a household muscle-therapy device. Jo carefully tested the device on his own arm first to ensure it caused a minimal distress response without causing harm " . He was very conscious throughout the research.
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u/OpenYour0j0 4h ago
Wait until people figure out how we accomplished the C-section that we use in today’s science. Mind blown 🤯
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u/YouMustveDroppedThis 1h ago
wait until people discover how we used to force mouse to swim until they gave up, intepreted as despair.
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u/shelf6969 4h ago
yes last time it was posted (and probably the times before that), his methodology was basically animal torture.
too bad he didn't science if butterflies felt pain first
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u/Nonamesleft6942069 3h ago
No. The original researchers used torture. Jo actually gave them a few words on that as well when he reached out to them.
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u/ketchup_bro23 3h ago
My ex has respect towards me eventho she hated me at the ending.
But I don't get too close.
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